Brendan O'Connor

00:05 Good morning. You're all very welcome. Dervil MacDonald with you this weekend. Our panel have been busy picking the best and the rest from this morning's papers. But before I introduce them to you, let's have a quick look at what is making today's headlines. Patients stuck in hospital for 400 days in backlog. That's the lead story for the Sunday Independent, which reports that thousands of patients are are languishing in hospitals while they wait for spaces in nursing homes, rehab centres or for home help. Wayne O'Connor, citing figure supply to Labour Health spokesperson Mary Sherlock, writes that last Friday marked the 100th day in a row that 500 people or more were waiting to be brought from hospital to another care setting capable of meeting their needs. 00:47 The papers off lead highlights claims by some criminal lawyers that they are being pressured by other colleagues to withdraw their support for the state's new legal aid scheme. And in what looks like what some of our learned friends might call a judicious leak, that story is replicated across a number of titles, including the Sunday Times, which leads with a report by John Mooney on the ongoing Guard investigation into the car bomb discovery. And in fact, that investigation itself has been impacted by the strike by criminal legal aid lawyers. Last night, a 44-year-old man appeared in the special criminal court, charged in connection with the Guard investigation, Simon O'Donovan, with an address at Sperrin Road in Dublin 12, was charged with being in possession of explosive substances. 01:28 But during the hearing, a solicitor, Darren Macken of Phoenix Law, attended the court hearing but told the judges that he wasn't in a position to assist the accused man who wanted Mr Mackin to represent him because of the ongoing strike and this resulted in the accused man representing himself in his own bail application which was rejected by the court and there is much commentary and analysis on that broader criminal legal aid strike and how it's impacting the courts right across today's newspapers The Business Post carries an illuminating column by Matt Cooper on what it describes as the white-collar war being waged by Ministers Jim O'Callaghan and Jennifer Carol McNeill against lawyers and doctors, those, which Matt Cooper notes, who might have been considered the Ministers to be their allies. 02:12 But it's the budget which forms the lead for the Post, which reports that Ministers are bracing for the toughest budget in years amid fears that public dissatisfaction could once again erupt in the autumn. The Irish Mail on Sunday carries what it claims are the first photos of former RT Director General Dee Forbes in three years. Ms Forbes, who left the National Broadcaster after a payments controversy, was pictured by the Mail near her home in Cork. DJ in HealthScare is the lead for the Irish Sunday Mirror. It reports that former Kilkenny hurling legend DJ Kerry, who was jailed for fraud after faking a serious illness, was taken to hospital earlier this week. 02:49 Staying with prisons, the Irish Sun on Sunday leads on reports that a convicted killer is one of several prisoners at the Midlands Prison who are compiling a new cookbook, part of a rehabilitation programme at the prison. It has sparked some protest from victims' families. Hell's Kitchen is the headline on an inside report by John Hand. For the Sunday World, it is Hennessy mob malls at war, an exclusive by Patrick O'Connell, which says that Guardia are monitoring what they describe as a meltdown in relations between female associates of the West Dublin Hennessy crime gang following a brutal attack in a tanning salon earlier this month. 03:25 Across the IRC, the observer leads with the caption baptism of fire above yet another striking picture of a man entering the sea alone in Cap Ferret in southwest France as more than 270,000 people have been evacuated in recent days in France and Spain. The Sunday Telegraph also carries pictures of homes being burned in France noting that many British expats are fleeing the region as French President Emmanuel Macron has deployed the army to help tackle the blazes and it really is Quite apocalyptic stuff. 03:56 With me in studio this morning to discuss all of this and more are Damal Hall, former ambassador to the US, Dr Emma Howard, senior lecturer in economics at TU Dublin, Keelan Gallagher, barrister and international human rights lawyer, and as I learned recently, a budding kayaker, and Cúan O'Shea-Doran, political correspondent with Radio Nigeltec. You are all very, very welcome. Keelan, tell me about the picture. We had an extraordinary picture yesterday in the papers of two people underneath a beach umbrella looking at Capfari. The picture as well in The Observer this morning is another kind of just, it just kind of seizes you when you look at it. 04:31 Yeah, it's an incredible picture. The Observer has got some really superb analysis of what's happening with the wildfires, but that photograph really stops you in its tracks. 04:40 Stunning photograph and deeply shocking. And then it's got pages and pages of analysis, obviously, about what's in fact happening with a particular focus on France and Spain. 04:49 Yeah, yeah. Cuan, another stunning photomontage. Thankfully, as we heard in the news report at Slievenamon, there has been a reduction in the significance of the fire. But the Mark Condren in a piece, I think, accompanying Tommy Conlon's coverage of Slievenamon, his photograph, his photomontage of Slievenamon is absolutely stunning. 05:07 Yes, and Aisling Maloney was speaking to the minister who's responsible for our national parks, Christopher O'Sullivan, and he's saying that this summer is an inflection point and that we're going to have to change how we deal with climate change. We're going to have to be better prepared for droughts, heatwaves and fires. And it's clear with seven days now of fire on Slievenamon that we do need to up our game there. 05:28 Because, Emma Hart, what's interesting about it is that there are lots of images, there's lots of photographs, but probably very, very little analysis of what's behind it. 05:37 Very little, and as Cun mentioned, that one piece by Aisling Maloney in the Sunday Independent. 05:43 quotes the minister saying, you know, we have to be better prepared. But nowhere in the papers and nowhere in the budget discussions, for example, are we talking about how we mitigate against climate change. And like what's really important for people to understand is that it's not just environmentally prudent, but it's fiscally prudent. And the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council had a really good paper they released a couple of weeks ago showing that if we act now, the costs are about one percent of our domestic economy. But the longer we wait in action means that that cost is going to double or potentially quadruple because we're going to face compliance costs. 06:16 We're going to face increased health costs, because if you look at, you know, more fires, more air pollution. And so, you know, we need to be acting to try and improve our energy security by decarbonizing. And again, any of those climate action measures. like decarbonisation, help with the cost of living as well. So there's really such a strong argument to look at climate action. We're seeing all these apocalyptic scenes across the papers, nearly 300,000 people in the continent evacuated with fires burning here and nobody's talking about the elephant in the room. 06:46 And Dan, it's become a major geopolitical issue as well, because this is being faced right across the world. And particularly, you know, we were chatting yesterday to Alan Gilson and John Walsh, just even about how climate might be a factor in a future discussion about unity on this island. But even the whole notion of climate migration, like this is this is not an isolated issue. 07:05 I mean, if places in the world become uninhabitable because of climate change, people will simply move. And we've seen over the last number of years how difficult it is to stop people from coming into any country, and particularly Europe, which has land borders with the rest of the world and a very narrow piece of water separating countries. Europe from North Africa, there's obvious problems there. So, look, this is going to become a bigger and bigger issue. And in Ireland, we may kind of shrug our shoulders and think, well, isn't it great to have these nice warm summers, which may indeed change the culture of Ireland. 07:38 People may be more inclined to stay at home in the summer and not go abroad to Spain and France. But think about it. Bordeaux is threatened. A major European city is threatened. 07:49 Madrid is threatened. Look what happened recently, a few years ago, in Los Angeles, where a very upmarket suburb of Los Angeles was reduced to rubble. And they're still struggling to rebuild that particular development. So we can't take these things lightly. We can't shrug our shoulders and say, isn't it great that we'll get the benefit of warmer summers? Because we may also see wildfires threatening, you know, built-up parts of Ireland, not just the Wicklow Mountains or Sleeve-la-Mon, but places that have far more vulnerable if these vows should spread to urban areas. 08:23 One issue, well hopefully the weather won't be a curse today for the All-Ireland final. Marty Morrissey, you're on the line. Cooler weather overnight, will that be something that's welcome today? 08:34 Do you know what? I think it will. I don't think we'll need a factor 50 today because the sun is shining as I speak to you, Dervla, but there was a sprinkle of rain earlier. So some people will be delighted with the rain, but there is a breeze and that's a wind. It's a wind factor that will be there in Croke Park. 08:50 But Croke Park, there might be windy at Hogan's on Jones's Road or Clonliffe Road, but when you go inside to the cavern, to the magnificent stadium that is Croke Park, it's a little bit sheltered, so you don't always get a breeze. But we're looking forward to a great All-Ireland final. 09:03 You'd have to be living on another planet not to know that Mayo are taking on Kerry today. A lot of headlines yesterday, the Prince versus the King, Kobe McDonnell and David Clifford. Will this be a big clash of the Titans, Marty? 09:15 It certainly is. And if you're using a World Cup analogy, it's Messi against Ronaldo, but they're ours. They're unique to Kaelic football. And it's just, I mean, we need stars. We have stars in every county, but these two men are just in a different league altogether, a different gravy. I mean, David Clifford has been footballer the year three times. And then we have this young lad, 18-year-old, who did his leaving cert about a month ago and is now heading to St Kilda in Melbourne to pursue a career over there. But today, at least we have him in Quirk Park. 09:48 What is Australia's gain is male and Gaelic football's loss. But let's savour it while we have him. 09:54 Absolutely. Who else will be crucial? 09:57 Kerry Seam to have great talent right through their pick. 10:01 I carry out the All-Ireland Champions, and they deserve to be accredited with that. I mean, you look at what they have, even on the bench, they have Paul Gainey. Gainey is now fitting well, and he's the actual captain. But for me, I mean, Paulie Clifford is a different league. I know David's brother, obviously. But last year, I mean, he had the run of Crowe Park. at centre-half forward. Now, he's named at 13, joining Dylan Ganey and David, his brother, on the forward line, but I expect him to be out around the 40. It'd be very interesting to see how Mayo coped. The two questions would be with centre-around the Cliffords. 10:33 How do Mayo cope with Potty Clifford, and how do they stop the supply to David Clifford? I mean, David Clifford has scored six goals, 44 points in what is over there, seven games. I mean, the only time he didn't score a goal was against any goal below in Killarney. He's an exceptional talent. If you don't cut out the oxygen, if you don't cut out the supply, then you can expect him to minimum score 1-3, 1-4 in nearly every game. 10:56 I don't know if the plural of talisman is talismans or talismen, but what about Mayo? What are we looking at there maybe in terms of maybe breaking through that curse? 11:07 Well, I suppose they have the best full forward line in the country. I know we mentioned Kobe, but you mentioned Ryan O'Donoghue has been outstanding. I mean, he's scored, what, two goals, 51 points in the campaign so far. And young 19-year-old Jarrah Byrne. What I love about that full forward line, Ryan O'Donoghue is the pivot, unquestionably. But the two teenagers, 19 and 18-year-old, have been sensational. Now, Kerry will say what I've just said to you a moment ago. They'll cut out the supply to David Clifford or Mayo will try to do that. Kerry will try and cut out the supply to those three boys inside. So further out the field, you know, you look at the captain, Jack Coyne, has had a very good season. 11:40 The half-back line of Sam Callinan, David McBride and Enda Hessian. Enda Hessian is particularly good. But I suppose the key area now that we have... 11:48 The two key areas is the kick out strategy from Jack Livingston and Shane Murphy, the Kerry goalkeeper and Mayo goalkeeper, respectively. But also the battle between Marco Shea and Sean O'Brien with Bob Toohy and Jack Carney. I think if Mayo have to have any chance at all, they really have to do well in that midfield area. 12:06 But it's intriguing. 12:07 Yeah, it is intriguing. Kerry, as you say, almost have a loyalty card when it comes to finals in Croke Park. Today is Reek Sunday and thousands of people obviously will be making the pilgrimage to Croke Park. Could the Reek Sunday climbers be the difference here? 12:22 Well, you never know. I mean, they're probably the people who couldn't get a ticket terribly. And there's a lot of them. I don't know how people got it. And I was in Mayo during the week and they tell me, oh, we're not that excited. Well, if that is not excitement, nothing is. And they're a great crack and they have a passion. Kerry are used to being in the All-Ireland. But I think in all honesty, the fact that the All-Ireland final is gone from the third Sunday in September to now the last Sunday in July, and it is Reek Sunday and it is the annual pilgrimage up to the top of the mountain of the Reek. You never know. 12:52 Listen, anything is possible. I think Mayo will reach out to anybody and anyone, whether in this life or anywhere else, to try and win that All-Ireland and bridge that 75-year gap. 13:01 They really will. Marty, thank you for taking time this morning. We'll be hopping on the bus to Drub Condor shortly. So thanks for taking that time this morning and best of luck to both teams today. Coming back to studio with me are Dan Mulhall, Dr Emma Howard, Keelan Gallagher. 13:18 Let's turn, I think, Dammel Hall to the budget. There's lots of analysis of the budget, but a lot of it could be summed up by income tax, income tax, income tax. 13:30 Yeah, look, most of us can remember the years before the great recession of 2008, 9, 10, when there was this exuberance and a sort of a belief that we could keep spending and everything was going to be hunky-dory forever in a day. And then we had the crash, and now we seem to be back in a situation where we're having a big budget surplus because of extraordinary inflow of corporation tax receipts. And I suppose the risk is that... 14:01 when there's plenty of money around, it's very difficult to say, let's put the brakes on, let's squeeze things. So I can understand why there's pressure for more spending from the public in particular areas and also why there's a desire to reduce taxes. Because if you have a government surplus, well, why wouldn't people feel that they should have a tax reduction? So I mean, and of course, the way it's being presented today in the papers is very much a personalised thing of Simon Harris and Jack Chambers. Simon Harris wanting to push The idea of tax cuts, hard. 14:34 And Jack Chambers talking about the need to sort of watch our spending, to control. And the fact is that, you know, we are spending now 125 billion euros a year in the budget. And there's this tax package or this budget package plan for 8.5 billion and 1.5 billion in tax cuts. The problem is that with tax cuts, it's relatively easy to estimate the cost of those tax cuts because you can work it out. But spending is very hard to work out because things happen. And when things happen, spending increases. And we don't know what's going to happen next year. 15:05 I mean, we've seen how many shocks there have been in the last year, you know, with the Gulf War and the continuing war in Ukraine and so forth. And things could get better or they could get worse. And fingers crossed they get better, but they could get worse. And therefore we need to, I think, bear in mind that the good times may not last forever. We need to be a bit more prudent. But I do understand the pressure on government to both increase expenditure and reduce taxes. 15:30 I don't know, Emma, I felt we were sort of being prepared. The Business Post has, you know, upcoming budget toughest in years, you know, kind of very, very strong messaging in respect to that. But actually, when you dig deep into the summary economic statement, and the, you know, a portion of spending and income tax cuts. 15:48 A lot has been spent already or is accounted for already. Exactly. And actually in the Business Post, they have the figures, the calculations from the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council, which basically show if you look at this additional spending that they flagged, they're going to do in this year's budget. If you take into account what IFAC estimates will be the overspend from the Department of Education, Department of Health, If you look at the planned increased spending under the National Development Plan, just the standstill costs of the fact we have a growing ageing population and adjusting like pensions and welfare payments for inflation. 16:22 And there was even an interesting piece in the, I think it was in the business section, was it, at the Sunday Times, where a nursing home provider is suing the state, essentially saying it's not enough. 16:31 It's not enough. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, you take into account all of these spending commitments that are already there. It leaves about 800 million for new measures in the budget. And that's not taking into account the fact that we still have to have a new public sector pay deal in this year's budget. And another thing that's pointed out in the business post is that last year's VAT cut for the hospitality sector, a sleight of hand meant that they brought it in in July this year, which meant last year's budget only covered part of the cost. You take into account that full cost for this year, which is nearly 700 million. 17:02 And you really don't have much wriggle room. And the government really are like their spending has been about nine point four percent increase year on year over the last while. And I guess what people need to understand and Dan rightly said people are looking at this forecast nine nine billion surplus that we're going to have. But when we look at these spending increases year on year, when they're at a rate that's more than the rate of growth in the economy, they feed inflation. They cause some of these increases in the cost of living, number one. But number two, when we look at our tax base, which is becoming increasingly concentrated, now we've got three foreign US multinational firms. 17:39 who pay 50% of corporation tax, which accounts for about a quarter of the government's overall revenue. So when we're narrowing that tax base even further, it leaves us not resilient to those shocks that we know are coming down the line, right? Like our aging population and like the cost of climate change and climate mitigation. But, you know, it doesn't leave us any wriggle room for those unexpected shocks. And the other issue is that like we're we're the this this projected surplus if we take away what we call those windfall corporation tax receipts, in other words, that money that we're getting that really isn't due to any economic activity that's going on in the Irish economy, we're actually in 11 billion deficit. 18:19 So these receipts that we're getting, it's brilliant that we have all this money. We should be using it to save for future known costs and for investment and for climate change mitigation, but we can't be using it to fund ongoing public service spending that we know we're going to have to keep paying for into the future and to fund tax cuts like the inheritance tax cuts, which we might get. 18:41 I'm going to come to the inheritance tax shortly, but Cuan, you were nodding soberly in agreement there. I mean, a lot of people will be feeling... the economic pain on a personal level. And for many, that's what they're voting on. That's their personal experience. It's inflation eroding any benefits that they might be perceived to get. 18:59 Well, it shows how important communication is in politics. And I think last year's budget, we did see tax cuts, but not for ordinary people. We saw it for the hospitality sector and widely discussed at the time as being probably ineffectual as a tax cut. There were also tax cuts for VAT on construction of apartments. 19:15 And it's not clear that that has actually had a positive effect, although to be fair, it takes time for effect tax changes in the construction sector to filter through. The tax change has been flagged this year and been promised this year, especially by Fine Gael politicians, are essentially to do with indexation of tax bonds. which will technically be a tax cut if it happens, but won't feel like it because people may be 400 euros a year better off. That's not really a huge amount. That won't even really probably be above the increase in the cost of living caused by... Bracket creep. Exactly, inflation, yes. 19:46 And this notably didn't happen in the budget last year and was a cause of some public dissatisfaction. And in fact, the Parliamentary Budget Office last year said that most people were worse off as a result of last year's budget because of both the abolition of energy credits and the lack of indexation. 20:01 As Emma says, the fiscal position is actually much more precarious when you look in depth at it. We're in fact borrowing money to invest into our climate fund and the two long-term funds the government has established. 20:15 If you read the summary economic statement in depth, it's a very detailed analysis of the position of the economy, the threats, the Middle Eastern issues, for example. the energy issues and also the fact that AI is going to play an increasingly large role in our society and economy. And they say that we have about 10 years to get this country ready to deal with the infrastructure deficits we have and to prepare to meet the expense of dealing with an older population. But it's not clear from the yearly decisions in the budget that that's actually been implemented correctly. 20:46 So there'll be a lot of talk about tax cuts this year, mainly for political reasons. People won't really feel the effect of them. And that's probably why Matt Cooper is writing on the last page of the Business Post saying that the Minister for Finance, Simon Harris, is in danger of overselling and under-delivering on this promise of tax cuts. 21:02 Speaking of overselling and under delivering, Keelan, I'm curious, you spent much of your career in London and you know Andy Burnham, the new and seventh Prime Minister in less than ten years in the UK. How is he going to navigate the UK's very, very challenging economic situation there? 21:19 Yeah, absolutely. So I've worked with Andy Burnham because of working for the Hillsborough families. And I, of course, know Keir Starmer as well, who was my head of chambers and who I worked with on a number of cases. So it's been quite interesting. The papers today are presenting all change and no change, essentially, in relation to the change that we're seeing with leadership in Labour in the UK, because essentially what you've got with Andy Burnham is a continuation of many of the policies. And there's no indication of a change of core policies in relation to economics or indeed Northern Ireland, a whole range of other topics. 21:53 But there's very much a change in packaging and the communications. 21:57 And he's a good communicator. 21:59 Very good communicator, I think. And actually, one of the very shocking things when you look at what's happened over the last number of months is you saw Keir Starmer just two years ago having a phenomenal result in the general election, really turning around the fortunes of the Labour Party and in the space of two years has plummeted down the opinion polls and has been in real difficulty now. There's what's now called a burn and bounce this week. 22:23 But it's only been a couple of days. 22:25 It has only been a couple of days. 22:26 It's only been a couple of days and already there's all this analysis. And I'm just wondering, is he going to go the way the same as the previous Tory prime ministers? The scrutiny on them, the bounce doesn't last too long. 22:39 No, it doesn't. And I think one of the real problems that we've got when you look at what's happening in the United Kingdom is you've had a revolving door of prime ministers. So an astonishing number of prime ministers in the last decade. It also means you've had a revolving door of other ministers. And something that I did want to highlight from today's papers is... There's some very good analysis about what the new cabinet means for Ireland in a couple of places. I thought Ger Colloran's piece in the Mail on Sunday, page 25. Friends again. Really good piece. I thought focusing in particular on the appointment of Chris Bryant in Northern Ireland. 23:10 Really interesting individual. 23:13 And a good piece in the Business Post, I think, too, about the range of different ministers. One of the big issues I've had this week with the UK revolving door of ministers is that we've had a move of foreign secretary, another role very important here in Ireland. We've had a change of foreign secretary from Yvette Cooper. to Ed Miliband. That was a surprise appointment on any view. Seems like it was a consolation prize as much of the analysis because he wasn't given the role of Chancellor. And you've suddenly had a shift of Foreign Secretary. I mean, I'm acting in a large number of cases at the moment where we work very closely with the Foreign Secretary and we suddenly had a total change of person during the week. 23:48 He was bounced over to Manila to deal with ASEAN within 24 hours of being appointed in this surprise appointment. But I do think that analysis in the Irish papers on what the change of cabinet is going to mean in Ireland is very important. 24:00 Another says... 24:23 for my childless aunt and uncle informally for 10 years at home. When their house was sold, I was penalised by €40,000 for being a niece. How is that fair? And that is from Eleanor. It is, Emma Howard, always a very, very sensitive issue. Leo Varadkar, amongst others, writing about the unfairness, not least because of how much property has, the values of properties have gone on. 24:47 Yes, I found myself in the unusual position of agreeing wholly with Leo Varadkar. in his piece today. 24:58 But yeah, I mean, so, you know, as he rightly points out, when we think about inheritance tax, it's an emotive issue because you're talking about a loved one dying. And, you know, there's this idea that there is somehow a double taxation so that, you know, they've paid tax on income. It's not earned income. So this is the point. It's not earned income. If you look at the wealth in Ireland, about 70 percent of wealth in Ireland is in property. And the vast majority of that is in your principal private residence. So when we sell our principal private residence, we don't pay any capital gains tax on that. So, you know, I could buy a property for 200,000, sell it for a million and all of that additional earnings is not taxed. 25:35 And I think the point Leo Fraga was making was that this actually, you know, deepens the inequality. 25:40 It deepens inequality, exactly. So, you know, he's making the point like if you, you know, if you look at someone who I think his example is in 1990, you know, the average house price, someone would have paid 95,000. Adjust for inflation and 210,000 is what you might expect it to be today. But actually, it's probably going to be selling for more than 500,000. So you've got 300,000 accumulated wealth. You can actually leave that even if you just have one child tax free to that child. If you were to earn that wealth by income or if you were to earn that wealth by any other purpose, you'd pay much more tax on it. 26:12 But the other point here is that like the the Centre Bank have done good analysis on on inheritances in Ireland. Now, the most recent data is from 2020. 26:21 only 30 percent of people received an inheritance based on the most recent data and of that those people who received it a tiny percentage actually paid any inheritance tax and what you see is that those who are already wealthy are far more likely to receive an inheritance and they're much more likely to receive a much bigger inheritance so basically this is Like if we think about, you know, if we want to improve equality, this is a very unequal, like the tax, reducing this tax anything is going to benefit those who are already quite wealthy, which is essentially Leo Varadkar's point in that piece. 26:57 Dan Mulhall, he said instead of, it should be treated as ordinary income or as a capital gain. Elsewhere, you know, analysts are saying, oh, we need to reduce the burden of capital gain. We need to produce more innovation. Where do you stand on the inheritance tax? 27:11 Look, it is an emotive thing because of all the taxes, a lot of people who are not expert in this field or not tax experts would feel that this is something that it's you're taxing an asset that has been acquired by wealth on which you've already paid tax if you're a PAY. Double tax. Double tax. So, look, I mean, I think this is the kind of thing we need to keep under review. I think that... I can see the arguments for having an inheritance tax for the reasons that Emma's just explained. 27:45 But I also think that we have to look at things like what you mentioned there, the nieces and nephews element of it. I think there are obviously things that need to be dealt with. And look, inheritance tax is an issue all over the place. It's not just in Ireland. It's an issue in Britain. It's an issue in Europe as well. They're different. 28:02 They're very different solutions. 28:04 Different ways of doing these things. They're different ways of... Look, I mean, the fact is that We have high income tax, but very low property taxes. Leo Radcar mentions that, you know, I've lived in other countries during my career and I've seen how property taxes are so much higher in other places. I mean, Americans would say to me, OK, our income tax is very low, but look at what I pay for my property taxes. 28:25 But then we've other things like fuel and VAT and everything else. And there are lots of people contacting me about it. But I better take a very quick break. 28:33 You're all very, very welcome back. There is nothing like tax to get you so vexed out there of a Sunday morning. Apologies. With me are Dan Mulhall, Dr Emma Howard, Keelan Gallagher and Cuan O'Sherodine. O'Connell Street used to be a fantastic boulevard, but parts of the city are an embarrassment. So says Robert Watt. He was speaking up at the McGill Summer School in Glentys during a discussion of ideas that could change Ireland. Mr Watt, of course, is a former Sec Gen of the Department of Public Expenditure Foundation. and more recently the Department of Health and he is now looking after how we can maybe transform the city. 29:13 Could we be another Notre Dame? Could we make Dublin a fair city again? 29:17 Make O'Connell Street great again. 29:20 I can see the hats, the merch. 29:23 But again, I'm not actually sure when the golden age of O'Connell Street really was. Perhaps when the Savoy and the Carlton Cinema were in their heyday in the 50s and 60s. But I think what's very interesting about what Robert Watt has to say is he's making an appeal for greater local democracy. 29:41 and the entity that he's been set up to lead, the Dublin City Regeneration Authority, there's a little bit of an oppositional relationship between it and the Dublin City Council. Dublin City Council has for years struggled with its budgets, is dependent really on central government to provide it with funds, but Robert Watts says that local authorities should be able to raise their own revenue, should be able to borrow. And of course, this brings us back to the entire question of a directly elected Dublin city mayor and whether or not that will actually happen. 30:08 And there was another point that Emma Ryan did that piece in the Sindhu on Robert Watt. Emma Hart, there was an interesting line where he also said we should be replacing annual budgets with multi-annual budgets over three years. And of course you hear everyone from health and education to local government crying out for that 30:27 Yes. And instead of the annual kind of, you know, that they can't essentially plan without it. And I was at the National Economic Dialogue as a rapporteur this year, and that was a theme that emerged across health care. We mentioned nursing homes and that piece today in the papers. And, you know, those multi and from the charity and the voluntary sector as well. So, you know, multi annual funding allows them to plan, allows them to better plan finance things year on year. And it is something that has been lacking in government budgets year on year. 31:01 And it's something that the Fiscal Advisory Council have been saying, you know, we need to have more than this short termism, we need to have these longer term plans. And to do that, we need proper funding streams in place and we need proper taxation to do that too. 31:15 Keelan Gallagher, whilst Coen goes off to copyright his Make O'Connell Street Great Again merchandise, you picked out a piece in the Sunday Independent, a floozy, a tart and indecent exposure. Are we too anarchic to take public art seriously? 31:30 I love this piece. It's by Julia Maloney today. So it's looking at Ireland's rather playful and irreverent attitude to public artworks. You know, so the floozy in the jacuzzi, the tart with the cart or the meeting place, the women by the hapenny bridge called the hags with the bags. There is a reference. I love this euphemism. There's a reference to the stiletto in the ghetto was another one for the spire. 31:52 There is the portal between Dublin and New York, if you remember, where there was the dropped trousers issue, as it's referred to here. It's described here by Julia as it became a theater for public disorder and had to be shut for a time. And the New York Post, you might remember, pleaded to the people of Dublin to try to keep your arses in your trousers. But it fell on deaf ears. But the piece, it makes a couple of points that I thought were worth flagging. The first thing is, it's just talking about that attitude to public art and how actually sometimes that comes from a situation where public artworks have been imposed rather than being grassroots supported. 32:26 And there's a good reference also to the kind of backlash that you had, if you remember, with two controversial city statues in Limerick. 32:36 Terry Wogan and Richard Harris, where they were called to be melted. And in comments made at the time. 32:41 I think people felt that they didn't look like either. 32:43 Well, exactly. I can't. Best viewed from two miles away, I think. They were quite poor depictions, I think it's fair to say. And if you remember, the artist John Shinnors remarked at the time that the people who'd commissioned it wouldn't know a Turner from a turnip. But there's quite a serious point made in the piece as well, which is important to flag and something that's been of concern to me for a long time. There's around 200 statues in Dublin City and only seven represent women. Three of those are Constance Markievicz. 33:13 And actually what we have 33:14 See also bridges and other. 33:16 Precisely or street names. And what we have in our public spaces reflects a kind of patriarchal old history. And there is an important point in this piece as well as the kind of jokes. There's an important point in this piece about what our public space says about us and thinking more in a more considered way about how we change our public space to reflect a diverse society. 33:37 It always amuses me when people point to France and to Paris and all of that. You kind of forget that the reason why you have those broad streets was actually introduced to prevent riots and protests. 33:46 I think brought in after the Paris Commune of 1870 when they decided to rebuild Paris. 33:52 I remember coming to Dublin as a child up from Waterford. My parents would drive us up and we would go to one of the big cinemas in Dublin. It was a great treat to go to a proper big cinema in Dublin. And I remember at that time, well, Constance was kind of like one of the wonders of the world as far as I was concerned. I was this boy from Waterford. And, you know, like Nelson's Pillar and all of that. And, you know, there was a lot of... 34:16 It was an impressive experience for someone like me. And now I think people who come to Dublin probably don't go to a Collins Street, and that's a great shame. I think we need to put something into a Collins Street that will lift the place. I mean, some kind of cultural institution. Why not the new Abbey Theatre? They're talking about building it on the current site. Wouldn't it be better to put it into a Collins Street? And it might generate some activity around the area that would lift the general level. 34:40 And it's kind of interesting because one of the things, maybe the difference between Dublin and other European cities, one of our listeners saying, you know, the area around Ocon Street has been hollowed out by huge concentrations of hotels. There are simply less people living permanently in the area and that obviously contributes to the quality of a of a city Keelan last night someone facing serious charges in the non-jury special criminal court had to represent themselves in a bail application because of the ongoing criminal legal aid strike which is not unique to Ireland we've seen it on the north of this island we've seen it in the UK there's quite a lot of commentary in the papers including by some who are saying you know the government around Jim O'Callaghan's onto a winner here but others saying well actually this is about the people who need legal representation 35:26 I thought this was really important because the story, the legal aid story dominates the front pages of some of the papers. So lead story on The Sunday Times and The Independent are talking about one particular angle on the story about Minister Jim O'Callaghan having been contacted by a firm firm. who said they were getting a backlash for accepting his deal. But I thought there were some very important stories buried in the later pages about this. And one I wanted to particularly highlight is Ger Colloran again in the Irish Mail on Sunday has an excellent piece talking about how... 36:01 While much of the characterisation presents this as being a kind of plucky minister against fat cat lawyers or criminals, in fact, in reality, this is having a devastating impact on some people who are victims of the criminal justice system and people who are defendants who may be very, very vulnerable. So he highlights, for example, the fact that the courts have really ground to a standstill. You've got a growing number of people, including even a child already charged with murder in cases where they didn't have the benefit of legal advice. And he highlights importantly that. And here's when he says it shouldn't be lost on Big Jim and others, that the fight he picked with solicitors continues to escalate in a week in which the Court of Appeal declared that Oscar Brannock's conviction almost 50 years ago for the Salins train robbery was a miscarriage of justice. 36:45 And he's highlighted the fact that there's problems coming down the line with the risk of miscarriages of justice in relation to this. He does also highlight very importantly, and you see this forgotten all the time when you have debates in a whole range of different countries where there's a legal aid fight. And we saw the same thing happen a number of years ago in the United Kingdom, too, where it was presented as government versus lawyers, you know, and you forget about the people who are really impacted by it. He gave a very stark example of a woman who broke down in Galway Circuit Court who was distraught because the sentencing of a person convicted of domestic abuse against her was postponed due to the solicitor strike. 37:22 So there's very, very real impact on defendants, many of whom are very vulnerable and particularly on defendants who are children, who have mental health issues and on victims of crime. And that's what the focus should be on. 37:33 Emma Hart, it's interesting. I think you spotted that Matt Cooper has sort of framed this as, you know, well, the people who normally vote for, you know, ministers like Jennifer Carroll McNeill or Jim O'Callaghan, the lawyers and the doctors are people that those professions would might have considered as allies. Is it helpful to frame it as that kind of the clash of the classes? 37:52 Yeah, I don't know if the framing itself is very helpful. And I think what's really clear here is that Jim O'Callaghan should have engaged with representative bodies before making sweeping changes. But I think that piece from Matt Cooper, you know, does also outline some of the examples of why this reform they, you know, he felt was was needed, because. You know, you've got examples there such as like free legal aid cases where there's 14,000 euro fee paid for a single brothel keeper, 31,000 single appearance fee paid for someone on money laundering charges. 38:29 And I think Gary Murphy also has a nice piece in The Sunday Times that sort of highlights the public concern around free legal aid. 38:37 And basically saying that, you know, you need a system which curbs abuses, but at the same time protects the public purse. And, you know, also that has to protect people who are, I suppose, defendants and accused. Cian, there is one accused, not in Ireland, but in Germany, where you used to live, an Irish citizen who has been on remand for more than 300 days. That's Daniel Tatlow de Valle. And it was interesting that a cross party group of politicians went over there to observe the proceedings. 39:04 That's right. They're currently on trial in Stamheim. It's a courthouse near Stuttgart, famous for where the RAF terrorists were put on trial in the 1970s in Germany. 39:13 And the Arachtas delegation, a cross-party delegation, which included Maraid Farrell from Sinn Féin, Richard Boyd Barth, people from the profit, Barry Ward from Fine Gael, a senior counsel with significant experience of the legal system. 39:25 And they were quite shocked, actually, by what they found over there. Barry Ward speaking at a press conference on Thursday, describing the conditions in which Daniel Tatlow Di Valle was held, but also specifically focusing on the procedures in court. He described the judge as being like a teacher who'd lost control of the classroom, that she wasn't ruling in a clearly objective way on various applications being made by the defence, And that there were concerns about the ability of the defendants to communicate in a completely transparent for them and confidential way with their legal teams. 40:03 Richard Boyd Barrett and Mairead Farrell, when they visited Daniel in prison on Tuesday, were forbidden from discussing the case with him during the short meeting they had with him there. So there are a lot of concerns been raised about the case. It's a non-jury trial. The five judges involved, two of them are lay people and it's laid out over a number of months now. The hearings will continue over 44 days until January. There is no transcript. being kept of the case and the family of Daniel. 40:33 Because they only do that, I think, it's standard here, I think. 40:37 And it's standard throughout Europe. And it's important if an appeal or anything happens in the future that both the defence team and also any future prosecutorial team have access to a full record of the case as heard. But the family are asking the Irish government to send a legal observer to the trial to keep an eye on things. 40:53 Can I ask you, Dan Mulhall, because the German authorities are pushing back. They're saying, look, this is a state protection trial. It's not just criminal damage and trespass. They're being charged with membership of a criminal organisation, use of symbols linked to Hamas. They are kind of pushing back. And I'm just wondering, you know, that complex and as a former ambassador, you know, to Germany, is there a stronger approach being taken by the German authorities, notwithstanding the Irish concerns? 41:19 Yes. Look, I mean, the reality is that when you're in another country, you are subject to the laws and the legal system in that country. And Germany has a particular legal system. It's a product of their history and the evolution of their country. 41:37 It's different from our system. It's different from other systems in Europe as well. So I think it's perfectly reasonable for our government and the Oireachtas to go there and to signal concerns and to keep an eye on what's going on because, you know, it is a different system and we... 41:54 The role of an embassy and of a government when it comes to a foreign country like Germany is to ensure that the Irish defendant is properly treated, is not treated unfairly, is not treated in a way that would be different from how other defendants would be treated. But we do have to recognise... that the Germans have a right to run their own system as they see fit. And, you know, I visited the German constitutional court when I was there. And it's a very, you know, the judges wear these extraordinary colored red robes. 42:29 And it's a very formal. And there, of course, some of the judges in the constitutional court are not actually judges, not actually lawyers. They're people who are appointed. to the position and they have expertise. 42:38 It's a very different system. 42:39 It's a very different system that they have and therefore we have to respect that. But at the same time we should also be vigilant in making representations to ensure that the Irish defendant here is not treated unfairly. 42:49 I was amused by one piece in Derek Scully's very, very detailed account of that hearing and having spent a lot of time covering legal cases here in Ireland. He said, given debate over everything that the Stuttgart court has banned, it's worth noting everything the court allows. This includes extended standing ovations, applause, cheers and whistles from family members and every time they enter and leave. 43:10 Just one final point I'd make of that is that the defendants don't contest the facts of the case that they were in that facility in Ulm. It's an Israeli owned arms manufacturer. It's about the motivation for why they were there. And there's a very deep difference of opinion between their contention is that they were protesting against the ongoing genocide in Gaza. The German government is saying they were basically acting as if they were terrorists. 43:32 Yeah, Keelan Geller. Yeah, and it's worth just flagging that this is one of a number of cases across Europe where very, very similar issues are arising to the one that Kuan has just mentioned. And something which is also mentioned in the British papers today is a case that's got some attention where, in fact, one of the lawyers involved is an Irish national where the lead counsel, Rajiv Menon Casey, who was acting in the case, reminded a jury of the jury equity principle the idea that a jury can actually essentially disregard directions from a judge and vote as a matter of conscience and he in fact is himself now the subject of proceedings for contempt of court for raising that point in front of the jury. 44:15 It's a very controversial case. So there's a seam running through this German case and what's happening in the UK courts as well about these cases which involve protest where defendants say they're acting as a matter of conscience in relation to the Gaza war and when they're then prosecuted for criminal damage or terrorist offences or whatever it may be arising from those acts of protest. 44:35 Staying with you, Keelan Gallagher, can I ask you about your take on an ongoing case? Again, it's in the papers quite a lot today, and that is Anish Illumina, you know, and just that the role of its parent company. Obviously, the Irish Times was heavily involved in that investigation. The government has published its report, and I suppose the one thing that both are missing is that we don't have boots on the ground in Russia. to ascertain either way. 44:57 So one of the complications, that takes up a lot of column space in today's papers. And I think one of the frustrations that many readers will probably have is that it's referring to a report which the readers can't see, where some of the newspapers have had sight of the report, but the report remains confidential. So rather difficult because you're being asked to formulate a view without having the full picture. 45:18 Now, we know in relation to the report that the report found that it couldn't essentially show that there was definitive evidence about what the material is being used for ultimately. And that is in part because of a series of smoke screens which have been put in place in order to disguise the true ownership and the true place that this is going to. And I think there is a particular difficulty in the papers because you're essentially trying to form a view with a partial picture. 45:47 One of the reasons, Dan Malhall, that the Irish government said that it couldn't publish the report, it said it was in receipt of confidential information from other jurisdictions. Obviously, it's gone to the EU Commission, which is the only body which can issue sanctions. Are we in a tricky position with our European peers? 46:04 We are. I have to say that I was involved in lobbying in 2018-19 when I was ambassador in Washington, and we lobbied at that time to have the sanctions adjusted so that Organised Illumina could continue to operate. At that time, the European Union was also lobbying because the Organised Illumina plant was seen as a strategic asset for the European Union, and most of its... 46:28 Its output was going to European aluminium smelter. So it was seen as an asset to Europe. Now, what seems to have happened, and I haven't, of course, been following this since I left Washington. I have no involvement now with it at all. But what seems to have happened reading the papers today is that the amount of the output going to Russia has gone up dramatically and the amount going to European countries has gone down. 46:52 And that draws inferences. 46:53 So that raises, and it's particularly gone up since 2022. 46:58 And that's when the Russian invasion of Ukraine happened. Now, it does seem to me unlikely that the Russians would allow part of their armaments manufacturing chain to be based in a country which could at any time close off the supply of alumina to Russia. So I suspect that. 47:17 But we're compromised, too, because in Europe, because the book site, the original, you know, the element that goes on to produce the Illumina, Emma Howard, it's provided by Russia. 47:28 So it's a complex chain, isn't it? It's a complex supply chain. And yeah, what we do know is that there's no evidence either way is what the government has found. But, you know, the data does, as Dan rightly said. So it was 23 percent of their exports went to Russia in 2020. 47:44 It's 68% last year. 47:47 So, you know, we know there's vast amounts going. The Irish Times investigation showed that, you know, they are going to a trader that has links to Roscoe, the company that owns... And what the company is now saying and the government has also floated is, well, look, let's get in a specialist in global supply chain that can, you know, try and... Is that enough? I mean, like, and so Aisling Maloney has a piece in the Sunday Independent. Can I just say something about Aisling Maloney? Yeah. You should probably receive a little award. She's fantastic. She's all over the place. 48:17 Practically first hand, the entire Sunday independent across many, many things. Aisling, if you're out there, we'll try and get you next week. 48:25 Well done on that. But, you know, in her piece, she quotes junior minister and Limerick TD Niall Collins saying that, you know, oversight mechanisms can be put in place to provide reassurance that they don't flow into this war machine. Now, in my experience as an academic researcher, if you are setting out and doing some research and investigation and you are trying to not answer a question, you're trying to show evidence in a particular direction, that's what you're going to find. And I think the issue here is that the company has said, you know, it's going to impact on the viability of the refinery. We know there's 400 jobs directly and then an additional 400 contractors. 49:00 And I think like this to me reminds me of all of the discussions about the occupied territories bill and lots of Commentators were saying, you know, if we implement this, there will be an impact on Irish jobs. There will potentially be an impact on American investment in the Irish economy. And in that situation, you couldn't point to a person and say their job is at risk or an area and say this area is going to be impacted. And the government is facing a harder task here because if we do the morally right thing and, you know, look at should we, we should probably on the balance of probability be sanctioning them, the economic viability. 49:32 And we know those people who will be directly impacted, which makes it a more difficult trade off. 49:37 Cuan, this is something that people can get their heads around because it is a community. It is a lot of jobs, a lot of jobs indirectly created down in Limerick with the Honish. 49:47 That's true. That's why we're seeing the mayor of Limerick, John Moran, defending the plant and also the local TD, Minister for State, Niall Collins. But there's a contradiction here between what the Minister for Enterprise, Peter Burke, stated on Morning Ireland on Friday when he said that the full report couldn't be published for a couple of reasons. There were confidential data in there provided by other countries, commercially sensitive data provided by Ahanis Illumina, and that security concerns were also raised by the Attorney General. Yesterday in the Irish Times, Conor Gallagher, who's been the main driver of this work for the Irish Times, said that they had a copy of the 51-page report, that it explicitly stated that it does not include any confidential data provided by a Hanish Illumina, It also appears to contain no data from other countries of a confidential nature and neither does it appear to contain information that would have a clear impact on the security of Aachenish Illumina or anywhere else. 50:40 They are two very different statements and that's a problem going into next week for the government. We also know that Estonia in particular is going to be lobbying the European Union to include Illumina in the products that are banned by the 22nd packet of sanctions. 50:55 Can I bring you something totally different? Keelan Geller, you spotted a piece, I think, in the Sunday Independent about Brenda Fricker's funeral plans. I used to live in the area and she was so, so much loved in the liberties. 51:08 It's a beautiful piece. So it's in the Sunday Independent, written by Niamh Horan, Deirdre Barry and Barry Hartigan. And it's essentially about Brenda Fricker having left instructions for her funeral, which includes real involvement, deep involvement, unsurprisingly, of members of the Liberties community. And it's a gorgeous piece. And there's been a lot said quite rightly in the last few days about what an incredible thing Brenda Fricker did for Ireland, you know, and for acting. for women. But this is a very, very personal piece. 51:39 And her dog died just a few days before her, actually. And I don't know if anyone's seen it. Someone who used to do acting with as a child, Hugh O'Connor in my Betty Ann Norton days, a brilliant actor who was in My Left Foot with her, of course, as young Christie. 51:57 Hugh is now a photographer and took this stunning photograph, which you can see on his Instagram, of Brenda Fricker in her home in the Liberties with Juno. Just a gorgeous, gorgeous photograph. And Juno pre-deceased her by a couple of days. And the piece talks about how she had left quite clear instructions about a number of things that should happen at the funeral, including some of the singing, some of the people who are going to be in attendance. And at its heart is the people of the Liberties, which I thought was just beautiful. It particularly struck me because I've got a family reason for being very interested in instructions left for funerals, because when my grandfather died, my granddad died decades ago. 52:36 It was very, very sudden, deeply shocking. He was a very fit and healthy man. And my granny was so stunned that she couldn't really engage. And a number of her children, my mother and her sisters, helpfully found very much on point with my granddad's personality that he'd left a very detailed instruction for his funeral about what readings there should be, what newspapers there should be a notice in and so on. 53:01 Very helpful thing to do for your family and loved ones. Exactly. 53:03 So they just got on with it and arranged the funeral. And afterwards, my granny, when she was coming out of the kind of fog, of the whole thing said, why did you pick those hymns? And my mother and her sister said, well, we found the list, you know, in granddad's, in his papers. And it turned out it was actually my granny's plan. So my granny was at a dress rehearsal for her own funeral. I've always been interested in funeral instructions. 53:27 Well, if nothing else, at least she got distressed. How's the music? Very, very quickly, Emma Howard, we have an aspiring kayaker in the form of Keelan Gallagher. You're a runner and wasn't yesterday seeing Rashida Adelika come back from such a tough year. 53:41 Absolutely fantastic. Yeah, Cahill Dennehy is writing about it. So she has had a terrible time with injuries since the Paris Olympics, really. And she had her second hamstring injury. strain this year that put her out of races that would have allowed her to get a qualifying time for the European Championships, which are in two weeks time in Birmingham. 54:04 And so, yeah, yesterday on home turf in Morton Stadium in Santry, she won the 200 metre national and got below the qualifying time. 54:15 And yeah, so just fantastic to see her come back from all that adversity. 54:17 A story down a hole of potentially Odyssean qualities. Have you seen the movie yet? No, I haven't. 54:23 I spent the last week at the beach in Dunmore East and there's no cinema there that was showing. But obviously... I'm a James Joyce enthusiast. I've written about Ulysses, so I kind of know the odyssey through Ulysses. So I really can't wait to see this film now that I'm back from the beach. But, I mean, you know, there's a piece in the Sunday Times by an academic, her name is Wilson, and she's talking about saying, you know, that it doesn't have the depth of the Homeric... 54:54 And there has been so much of it. 54:57 I mean, which movie ever has that, has the depth of the book that it's based on? 55:00 Well, yesterday our listeners thought that Pat Short, the comedian and actor, had turned down the role of Homer because he turned down a big show but wouldn't reveal what it was. It was not the Odyssey. I'm afraid that's all we have time for today. Thank you for joining me. Dan Mulhall, Dr Emma Howard, Keelan Gallagher and Cúan O'Shardon. Thank you very much.